Originally by: AkJon Ferguson

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"We believe that the situation that has unfolded in the past week has been a perfect storm of CCP communication failures, poor planning and sheer bad luck."

Seriously, were you guys drunk when you wrote this?

There was no communication failure. There was a communication success. We got to know what CCP really thinks for a change. We got reliable accurate information in a timely manner for a change. This joint statement is a communication failure.

Poor planning? Well yes, but that's nothing new. CCP's plans for EVE (Internet Spaceships) suck. They sucked before. They will no doubt continue sucking. I don't think their plans have changed one iota because of this.

Bad luck? I'm not sure how you equate dishonesty and contempt with bad luck. It's unlucky that the folks at CCP are morally bankrupt?

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Originally by: Raid'En

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Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

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And who knows, CCP may come up with something that seamlessly connects to Incarna that is more immersive than the current hangar, in which case I don't think there's a real problem.

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well make us load incarna while on our pod, stucked on the bacony, and if you move you leave the pod
if they are willing to work on a better thing, like they said, then i'm pretty sure they can find a solution that will load incarna while still being RP okay.

we want to be on our ship.
they want us to load incarna
then make us begin inside the ship.
and if we click "leave ship", we appear as character

and when we launch the game we are always outisde the ship (better to sleep on our bed than on the goo)

something like that

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Originally by: JGR Mao

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Oh well
Not really convinced as we did not get a definitive answer

But i guess it will have to do - atleast for now

Will definately be watching both what you say, and what you do more closely from now on.


Its ok to milk the cow - as long as you provide it some fresh pastures to munch on and generally keep it happy

Starving the cow to milk it even further, and then scaring it by bringin it to the slaughterhouse to sell its meat, will not work on these bloodthirsty voracious spacecows you have helped breeding here -mmkay!

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Originally by: Debbie DoesDallas

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Its unfortunate that CCP seemingly forgot how to communicate effectively with its player base. They've done fairly well in the past. I'm glad to hear the results of the summit. Thanks to the CSM's for the short notice trip.

The Incarna bugs are bad but then again, we all remember some bad bugs introduced in other expansions as well. They will have to fix em and hopefully soon.

I hope to see more content upgrades in the future and less WiS. How about fleshing out the T3 line to include other ship types? What about incorporating some of the winning ship designs from the last contest? I see more effort in a NeX store than I do with things that contribute to actual spaceship violence and that's sad.

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Originally by: Kane Molou

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What I want to know is what makes the CSM better then the rest of us? What makes them soooo damned special that they get access to information and the like we aren't allowed.........


oh that's right.....


Nothing.

they are no more and no less then the rest of us, except that they bow down and sign NDA's that forbid them from doing their job of keeping US informed.

Again.. if CCP is truely serious about showing us they are going to keep their promises of fixing bugs, releasing more content etc etc etc.. Lift the NDA. Lift the Gag order on the CSM and let us see what they see.. given again they are meant to be our voice..

How can WE have a real voice if WE don't get the same information?

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Originally by: AkJon Ferguson

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Originally by: AJ Falconi

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It is unfortunate that neither CCP nor the players (in general) were able to speak reasonably and civilly through the blog and forum formats. The CCP blogs & forum posts alternated between insulting and irrelevant, and many of the players behaved like spoiled two-year-olds, but with a lot more bad language.

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I really like your post. If CCP had half as much common sense about EVE as you do after playing for a few weeks, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

If you think of what CCP did as akin to what Tiger Woods did to his wife, you might better understand the player anger. (Many players have been loyal customers of CCP for far longer than Tiger Woods and his wife were a couple.) And when, as you say, CCP blogs & forum posts alternated between insulting and irrelevant, couldn't that anger be expected to grow? It certainly didn't help matters that CCP devs post with anonymous alts on forums in an unethical and dishonest effort to influence the debate. Nothing stokes anger more than dishonesty.

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Originally by: Moon Shadowfall

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Edited by: Moon Shadowfall on 02/07/2011 22:47:55

Originally by: AkJon Ferguson

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Originally by: AJ Falconi

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It is unfortunate that neither CCP nor the players (in general) were able to speak reasonably and civilly through the blog and forum formats. The CCP blogs & forum posts alternated between insulting and irrelevant, and many of the players behaved like spoiled two-year-olds, but with a lot more bad language.

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I really like your post. If CCP had half as much common sense about EVE as you do after playing for a few weeks, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

If you think of what CCP did as akin to what Tiger Woods did to his wife, you might better understand the player anger. (Many players have been loyal customers of CCP for far longer than Tiger Woods and his wife were a couple.) And when, as you say, CCP blogs & forum posts alternated between insulting and irrelevant, couldn't that anger be expected to grow? It certainly didn't help matters that CCP devs post with anonymous alts on forums in an unethical and dishonest effort to influence the debate. Nothing stokes anger more than dishonesty.

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..says the person who trolled, flamed and baited MANY threads disagreeing with him...including trolling this one still. Get out the Preparation H and stop the whining...or move on to another game. What a hypocrite.

They can say nothing more to attempt to answer your concerns. If you can't trust them then please take your subscription money elsewhere...

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Originally by: The Offerer

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But what advantage?
Do you have an advantage because you have the items
OR
does the manufacturer have the advantage because he gets your ISK
OR
does a PLEX buyer have an advantage because he can afford (ISK wise) to play the game for free?

It's a win-win-win scenario. It's so cool that it's bigger than bi-winning... it's tri-winning.

P2W is the system where you get the items from the MT store for cash and no one else gets anything.

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Originally by: Ranka Mei

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Originally by: Feisty Cadavar

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If this was a product I designed - I'd probably have something like you dock up, and you see from the inside of the ship out to the hangar deck with a camera flying around your ship displaying your current ship ( that you can spin ).

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And that's precisely what's wrong with the old hangar: it's not based on the new balcony area where your ship currently floats. So, just putting the old one back, and then have you dock to quarters and find yourself in an entirely different hangar, that's just immersion-breaking on a grotesque level.

Just give 'em some time to come up with a new spinning design.

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Originally by: Dodgy Past

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Edited by: Dodgy Past on 03/07/2011 01:17:16
Edited by: Dodgy Past on 03/07/2011 01:16:32
6-8 months before news of MT for convenience ( which will be abused into MT for advantage ) leaks out and we have another explosion of rage.

It's somewhat ironic that the only thing the document successfully communicates is that CCP knows they're not very good at communication. Oscillating between no non-vanity MTs and no game breaking MTs in the same document with no definition of what a non game breaking MT is

The CSM went to Iceland knowing what the players needed to hear yet CCP managed to hurf blurf them so that the reality is not only has the faith of many player in CCP not been restored but also CSM 6 has also managed to tarnish itself as well.

From what I've seen many players are far from ready to reinvest themselves in Eve having broken their emotional attachment to the game over the last couple of weeks.

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Originally by: rantuket

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I have been waiting with bated breathe on the results from this only to be left a little shocked. Why it took so long to say "nope, no plans on doing that at all" took so long is beyond me.

But for all the recent hubub about the nex store and the way CCP is taking EVE - this while incident - was a wake up call for me and many others. I personally dont give a **** about MT, but I do care about EVE and for now it seems like that game is on hold until incarna is fully released over the next few updates.

CCP, you wont have my subs back until you change course and go back to fixing your spaceship game.

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Originally by: Darkside007

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"It is CCPæs plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only. There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store."

When President Bush was planning on invading Iraq, his response when asked was "There are no plans on my desk". Which was true - the plans were kept away from the final review/signature stage to avoid answering "yes". Once the plan was ready, it was implentmented. It wasn't allowed to sit idle to avoid lying to the press.

"There are no plans" isn't "We will not". It's "We would like to in the future."

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Originally by: Darkside007

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"The CSM, under NDA, has been presented with CCPæs plans for continued evolution of the business model and agrees that nothing they saw breaks this principle"

Including "Under NDA" tells me that the CSM cannot contradict anything CCP, even if it's BS. =\

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Originally by: Lemming Lass

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I can access the NeX store without loading the CQ, and that store should be filled with ship painting and other vanity crap that has nothing to do with WiS clothing.

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Originally by: Constantinus Maximus

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Edited by: Constantinus Maximus on 03/07/2011 04:03:00
Where is Hilmar's committment?

Not worth the paper it's written on I'm sorry to say.

edit: Actually, this is **** poor. "We just didn't communicate".

No. You PLANNED. You made CLEAR STATEMENTS showing you were focusing on SHINNY because the STATS showed more sales.

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Originally by: The Mittani

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what a huge pain in the ass this all was. just got back home.

as i said before, this whole mess could have been prevented with better communication from ccp, which is the company's achilles heel. i'm glad that we were able to help clarify things and that the spectre of gold ammo and gold ships and lowes in space can be put to rest, beyond the easily-trolled conspiracy theorist fringe who'll sperg out no matter who says what

now i'm going to go to sleep for a week. at least in wisconsin the sun goes down X(

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Originally by: Slidepot

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My one and only questions is... Was there any and I mean any interest show by the Ginger at the top.. Any? Did he stop by and say Hi? If not this whole :effort: was just a bandaid... IMO

Originally by: The Mittani

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what a huge pain in the ass this all was. just got back home.

as i said before, this whole mess could have been prevented with better communication from ccp, which is the company's achilles heel. i'm glad that we were able to help clarify things and that the spectre of gold ammo and gold ships and lowes in space can be put to rest, beyond the easily-trolled conspiracy theorist fringe who'll sperg out no matter who says what

now i'm going to go to sleep for a week. at least in wisconsin the sun goes down X(

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Originally by: Vandrion

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I recommend reading to you....

As I have said once before in this thread-- The posts by CCP Shadow speak of MT as a whole.. If it was only skill points he would have said "No MT for skill points".

I will copy and paste Post #20 in that thread so you can read it again:

"No. There are no microtransaction plans, whatsoever. I wrote "in this case" because this extended downtime was an unusual situation. It's not every day we relocate our servers to a new facility."

Whatsoever.... Skillpoints... 2 totally different words.....

I would like CSM/CCP to explain/define gamebreaking (per CCP statement) and game altering (per CSM statement). I think it is imporatant for all of us to know that the CSM, the players and CCP are all on the same page......

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Originally by: Helena Russell Makanen

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Originally by: Poll

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FIX LAG in large unit combat. That is what we should be truly outraged about....

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But they are 'fixing it'... they are going to slow down the battles to run in slow motion. That will fix everything!

Of course they will never put that item in their 'grand battle' promo videos. Why?

Because its lame and stupid.

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Originally by: d4shing

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Originally by: The Mittani

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what a huge pain in the ass this all was. just got back home.

as i said before, this whole mess could have been prevented with better communication from ccp, which is the company's achilles heel. i'm glad that we were able to help clarify things and that the spectre of gold ammo and gold ships and lowes in space can be put to rest, beyond the easily-trolled conspiracy theorist fringe who'll sperg out no matter who says what

now i'm going to go to sleep for a week. at least in wisconsin the sun goes down X(

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I think they communicated pretty clearly that they want more of our money but that they don't want to have to earn it by making the game more enjoyable to play.

They even communicated that they're happy to consider making the game worse in the long-run if it wrings out more cash in the short term.

I don't think the problem was that they didn't communicate this in a sufficiently gentle manner.

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Originally by: Kiran

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Originally by: Dalketh

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Originally by: Kiran

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Good job on the statements, I did have my doubts about a Goonswarm CEO being in there. But like the rest of us you have a passion and view on Eve. Thank you.

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And how did the goon CEO redeem himself exactly? By getting no apology for Hilmar's email insulting the entire community?

Or was it the video of him talking talking talking and then practically attaching his mouth to the Dev's crotch towards the end?

Pretty hair though. Glad he had enough time for that.

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And some people will never be pleased no matter what you do. The devil you do the devil you don't. In your eyes the CSM would never of won no matter what the outcome was. They are under a NDA so can't say much, but I ask you this. Do you know what the NDA means?

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Originally by: Marcus Aurelijus

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Right,

Well at least that's moved me from a I'll let my game time run out to a well see what they DO instead.
I do notice a slightly disturbing lack of presence in the statement about FUTURE MT - but I guess this is good as it gets.

So what would make me a happy capsuleer?
- A even clearer statement from CCP not only to have no current plans for beyond-vanity MT but a promise not to start making those plans in the foreseeable (<-- see: im being nice here) future. I have been putting a lot of time into this game after all and would like a little more certainty if its sensible to spend more.

- An apology from Hilmar himself for the appalling attitude and disrespect hes shown the whole community.

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Originally by: RougeOperator

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Another BS CSM meeting with little to show other then the CSM member's got treated like kings for not doing the will of the players or taking a hardline stance against what CCP was doing.

Thanks for the failure guys.

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Originally by: Inspiration

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Edited by: Inspiration on 03/07/2011 09:11:24

Originally by: Alejan Gerakh

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Originally by: The Offerer

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But what advantage?
It's a win-win-win scenario. It's so cool that it's bigger than bi-winning... it's tri-winning.

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Except that he is wrong, he describes how PLEX works now. While AUR is derived from PLEX, the real life currency competes feeding it with the already existing use of PLEX. Buying game time, meaning higher PLEX prices and likely less active accounts!

So that win/win/win, turns into a win/tie/loose situation. Where the win is the buyer, the tie is CCP and the looser is everyone not involved in the transaction. All based on how rich you are in RL, so it is detrimental for the game as a whole.

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Originally by: Noel Tiberius

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I was a bit dissapointed though, I had hoped for more info about the future of EVE. Maybe something for a new devblog? A part of the player base feels neglected, and it would be a good idea to sum up all the plans for the next 6-12 months.

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Originally by: Ankh

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(1) The statement that "CCP has no plans to introduce 'Gold Ammo' or 'Gold ships' in the Aurum store" needs to be stronger imho. I'd like to see something like: "EVE will NEVER have pay-to-win options in any shape or format".

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Originally by: Kerrisone

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I'm not willing to believe them but I'd have been more inclined to extend them some credit if they had written/spoken about their vision for EVE and how pay for advantage was not what they wanted, how they were against it and would not take the game in that direction. They could have even said "If however EVE starts to decline or lose revenue then we will look to what can continue to save it but short of something terrible like that no pay for advantages/services or 'pay to win' features will be implemented".

Part of this whole problem is their terrible communication, ignoring the CSM, what I'd call arrogance so they should be more honest and forthcoming with us from now on, ESPECIALLY NOW. They had PLENTY of time to craft such a thought to convey what they care and think about their product, instead we got them tip toeing about the NEX, that was a real disappointment for the 'better communication' we were supposed to be getting.


Also thank you for engaging with so many people in this thread.

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Originally by: Dodgy Past

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Originally by: Lord Zekk

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So far what have seen is that it takes EXTREME rage, riots and a lot of account cancellations for us to get your attention. Please show us that rationally talking to you and pointing things out works better.

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It never has and it never will.

It's always the same cycle, ignore the players until they kick up a huge storm, then finally acknowledge them while whining at how immature they are to kick up a big storm.

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Originally by: Zeta Kalin

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My answer

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Originally by: Iskandara Cho

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Originally by: Cebraio

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Confirming that this has not become a threadnought.

Well done CCP. Finally some people can calm down a bit.

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What you call 'calm' I call 'resigned' as in

I am resigned to the fact that CCP has none of my interests at heart and so will no longer waste my energy, or my money, hoping that they will change.

Sorry, but all they have given us is weasel words.

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Originally by: Menenda Tararena

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You useless piece of CSM monkeys went to Iceland without discussing the underlying core to the frustration we have seen recently dident you?

It never occurred to either you or CCP that the real reason people got so aggravated now, is that we havent seen any real improvements to eve for several years?

All we got is fixes to stuff that if they spent the money the eve subscriber pays should have been fixed ages ago. And then as a final push over the edge we got this piece of mindnumbing useless captains quarter.

And now you utterly useless not worth a dime CSM sits and sweettalks with CCP pretending to represent the community. Bah, i wont even spit on you, thats how low i think of you.

Politicans, and their wannabees, theres a special place in hell for you.

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Originally by: HyperZerg

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I have 3 questions regarding this whole debate.

1. Why MT in the first place ? Greed?

2. Why THAT many open backdoors in the statement? Buying a Titan per NEX is non-game-breaking but a non-vanity item. Also, gold ammo in a NEXX shop is still possible.

3. The internal newsletter contained plans for faction-standing sales per NEX. How can you say there were NEVER plans for it ?

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Originally by: Kvetha Fricai

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So, in one short year, we went from "no plans" for MT to "deploying" MT? Is this what you call truth now or then? Get it straight CCP, tell the truth or lose the subs. I want to have it right now, in writing, that you will NEVER introduce items in the NEX that will IN ANY WAY effect game play period. No exotic ammo, ships etc. Put it out there as we are waiting to see and hear it.

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Originally by: Grey Griff

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the thing is that there should be no game influencing items or services for money and it can be pretty simple answered.

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Originally by: shar Depran

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Sadly all seem to have missed the point here as they sat politely round the table, Players in EVE play EVE because they æDO NOT WANT TO PLAY WoW.Æà.. got it!. Write that down on your oversized CCP issue foreheads please.

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Originally by: shar Depran

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As such the option to opt out of this section of this game should and I would go as far as to say must be included so players can retain the hangar environment if they so choose so allowing the once fluid play afforded before this ridiculous addition to the game, A HOLOGRAPHIC option is not an option here guys, docked means docked and not strutting around some scruffy station corridor in fancy clothes and high heels.

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Originally by: shar Depran

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The statement also provided insight in to the Trinket stores future inventory, but again neatly sidestepped the issue of game changing items being sold there, I called it a Trinket store because that is just what it should be, fancy goods for vain players that want to tart up there toons, not so called Gold ammo or special purpose ships ect, design these things in your coffee breaks if you must, or better still accept idea from players on the designs and if you get blown up you loose em, simply game pay really, what EVE was always about.

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Originally by: shar Depran

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In closing a note to CCP ZULU, please take the crayons off those script kiddies you employ and put them to work were they should have been all along, BUG FIXING the crappy code they wrote in the first place, and no cookies for them or you until they do.

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Originally by: Doctor LaserBoars

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This blog answers little, and is filled to the brim with vagueness and promises. I'm not sure why CCP is leaving so much wiggle room in all of their statements, and all of these promises are pretty much useless to me as they're coming from a group I no longer trust.

I'll remain unsubscribed until I see some action on CCP's part, instead of just words.

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Originally by: Azanee Yarabokin

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So, after all this we get some weasel words, Zulu and the Goon congratulating each other on how reasonable they've been, and that's about it.
The myriad things wrong with Incarna may be fixed at some vague future date, or they may not. Some "lower priced" garbage may be coming to the NEX at some point in time, or it may not.
No apology from Hilmar, and no rollback on the outrageous NEX prices. "Staying the course" indeed. It's quite clear who wears the $1000 pants at CCP, and it isn't Zulu.
So when will we get an apology for Hilmar's p***-poor attitude to the people who pay his salary? Never, you say? Well, then I guess that's when CCP will get more of my money.

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